Chris Kaspar sits down with Dr. Cassie Reid to discuss the good, bad (and ugly) of remote and online mental health services.
Introduction 0:00
Hi. Thanks for joining us for another Techless Talk, where we explore how consumer technology shapes our relationships, health and culture. Here's your host Techless founder, Chris Kaspar.
Chris Kaspar 0:18
Let's change pace, a totally separate topic here. I don't even know how these two are connected in capacity. But I want to know, so your brother is a huge advocate for remote working. And like he's spoken nationally on it. So I'm probably I'm going to try to get a follow up conversation with him. Yeah, I want to debate because I'm a face to face kind of guy. And I actually want to debate him back and forth. And I haven't done a single debate yet. But oh, you should love it. But and he's way smarter than me. So I'm gonna get did run around in circles. But you I want to know, particularly in the mental health space, you mentioned a project that you were working on with the military that you're consulting on. So first, if you can share a little bit about the project, what you share, and then I want to dive into counseling, over zoom. Yeah,
Dr. Cassie Reid 1:01
no, it's, I am gonna kind of be vague about it, just because it hasn't really hit been rolled out. But they are doing a mental health application for people in enlisted in their family so that they can get mental health services through an app. So basically, the app, why consulting on that was more of the credibility clinically, as well as just some of the usability of it and things like that. But there's like a journal component, there's modules that they would go through, that are all really cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the most researched and found to be the most successful. So they, they go through these, but it's anonymous, which in the military is really beneficial, because a lot of people say it's okay to have a mental struggle, but then really, it will affect your promotions and things like that. So that's kind of why they developed it, you know, and there's there's a catch 22 with it, obviously, like, I was able to analyze the pros and the cons, working with a lot of chaplains and a lot of people, high ranking military officials, but is that how do we keep the anonymity but yet still identify folks who are struggling? You know, that's the, that's the catch 22 With technology is it's nice, because you can be using it and no one's going to be in your way or know what you're processing. But on the flip side, if someone's suicidal or really needs help, we aren't able to really intervene that way. So there's pros and cons.
Chris Kaspar 2:22
Yeah. So So you've spent time really looking at I mean, in depth, and now analyzing and asking ourselves the question, okay, I mean, it's remote.
Dr. Cassie Reid 2:31
Help. Okay. Yeah. So not live. So yeah, that's the other component.
Chris Kaspar 2:35
Okay. So not live. So it's like, okay, so it's not live mental health? And so I will kind of highlights here, what are the highlights? What rises to the surface of the benefits of having kind of technology enabled, as opposed to the more traditional method method, which is face to face counseling? And what are some of the challenges,
Dr. Cassie Reid 2:54
the benefits for sure, accessibility? I mean, there are people who will not walk into my office and say, I need help. Like, unfortunately, there's so many stigmas. Still, we're still trying to overcome that. A lot of people in very generations, various ethnic backgrounds, it just depends how you were raised. And where you are to determine is this something you would pursue? So that's, I think, a pro is they're able to, it's also self paced. So I'm going if you're in the middle of the night, wake up at 3am, and you want to work on yourself, and you can do it at your leisure, the
Chris Kaspar 3:22
hurdles are very low to get into having accessibility is high hurdles are low, you can reach a lot of people that way.
Dr. Cassie Reid 3:28
Yes, I think the cons are, I am a big, like, we had talked about relationships and like connection. I'm a big connection person, like even sitting with you. It's like, I have the capability to see you nod your head or I drove
Chris Kaspar 3:43
to Dallas, I drove for hours for this. And I know I'm just because I wanted to be here face to face with you. And I'm tired of zoom call. I
Dr. Cassie Reid 3:50
know, I know,
Chris Kaspar 3:52
on a value that there is
Dr. Cassie Reid 3:53
and I think that's the thing is, you can see people you really and there's something about presence, about the presence, feeding off. Like if someone really needs comfort, just to be in the room, I don't have to touch you by handing you a Kleenex or even just being able to look you in the eyes, like in the flesh. And I just am a big fan of that. I think that that's part of why counselling is so healing is that you have a human a real person who is there, you know,
Chris Kaspar 4:22
no, I put huge value, especially when you deal with the the more nuanced, sophisticated, complicated, dramatic. Yeah, I mean, even with Techless, we do super deep tech stuff. And building wise phone was not freaking easy. No. And I flew all around the world to go meet with our developers and talk through stuff face to face for weeks at a time. And I've got kids at home. Yeah, but that's just what it takes to do transformational change. And so I'm just going to be kind of a devil's advocate. So So you mentioned the hurdle is low on an app based or I'm not even going to I'm not even gonna go after the app thing. I'm just going to say remote counseling in general. about that, because that's really not, that's what I want to talk about is remote counseling. So the hurdle is low. But for me, it feels like an app in the App Store that 10 million people can download, but not intimate. Like, it changes their life an inch. And it's not because the hurdle is low. It's not actually meaningful or impactful. This is my perception. But as opposed to like, why Wisephone is super intense for people to switch from using a smartphone to a Wisephone is like, it's life changing, you have to change habits, like you have to have a GPS on your car. We just released the Maps app. So nevermind. But yeah, but you there's compromises you have to make. But at the end of the day, very few people are willing to make the jump or fewer people are willing to make the jump, because it's not a quick little simple $1 purchase, and I can get it two minutes later. But at the end of the day, kind of like counseling face to face, there's an expense to it. There's an inconvenience to it, but it truly is transformational in people's lives. And so I'm not a big fan of any type of remote mental health. I don't know,
Dr. Cassie Reid 6:04
I'm not either, which is hard. And it's been hard, just in this season of you know, us of coming through the pandemic, things like that. It's not been easy, and but I just feel like you missed so much. It's interesting, if I were to do a social study of the folks that I've seen and kind of evolution I supervise for the state of Texas, and then obviously all my students out in the field. So it's like I hear a lot of cases. And I would say that probably the Reschedule rate is significantly lower in telehealth versus in person, like people just who are like, you know, it's kind of one of the season Okay, well, I'll let you know. You know, it's because it just isn't so filling,
Chris Kaspar 6:41
reschedule. unpack what, what that means and how it's relevant. Yeah, sure,
Dr. Cassie Reid 6:45
like rescheduling. So like, if you and I were to schedule a session, it'd be your first session, we do it on Zoom, or whatever platform you use. And like we would meet together, the likelihood of you feeling like you wanted to come back or wanted to have another session is significantly lower than if you and I were to meet in person. Okay, so I actually
Chris Kaspar 7:03
so reschedule is a good thing.
Dr. Cassie Reid 7:06
Because continue to keep coming. Yes, yes. Because I think part of it is anybody can come one, that's just a get to know you. You know, I mean, I actually dive pretty deep into first session, but some people don't, you know, just get
Chris Kaspar 7:18
with you. They're scared. They're in it for the long haul,
Dr. Cassie Reid 7:21
I treat every session like it can be the last well, cuz you have to like, it's like, I'm not going to hold back, I'm going to say what I feel led to say, and I'm going to treat it like if you don't come back, I want to make sure I at least gave you something you know, but I find with telehealth, it's harder. And even for me as a clinician, it's like distracting the unknown for this couple of years working with them. And they had kids at home. And like they would try to schedule the session when the kids were there. But they had a two year old and like literally, they're like talking hard topic about like their marriage. And I'm really a big believer that kids understand in the womb, like they hear they know, they sense presence of like, tone. And so then all of a sudden, like, we're like they're fighting it out. And this two year old just comes crawling into the screen, and is like looking at me like hey, like eating crackers. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, like we're having this like, major moment. And this two year old is just there the whole time. And like people who just craziest things. It's like, what are you doing? Like, wait a minute, we need to have this conversation, you would never have this conversation in my office with the two year old like in my face, you know? And so I think that's been the hardest thing. And for me, I just I can't get I can't see what was happening in the room either.
Chris Kaspar 8:32
So how do you feel when you're I mean, when you're doing remote sessions,
Dr. Cassie Reid 8:37
it's not as lifegiving for me, frankly, like I dread it. No offense to my clients who have done a remote session with me.
Chris Kaspar 8:44
Well, no, no, but you know, and I'm like, I don't want to be dogmatic about it, either. I mean, so I know that there are times and seasons when it just makes sense. Yeah, I mean, that's the benefit of technologies. But there's also the ideal. And so what I like to do is just chase after the deal as much as ideal as much as possible. And then if you ever have to compromise and step down and do something less than ideal, just go for it. And there's no judgment here. No judge on that. And sometimes life is crazy. And it's nice to just hit a zoom session.
Dr. Cassie Reid 9:09
Oh, and but what you said earlier really resonates with me. Again, I'm not saying that everyone who chooses this option is lazy, especially with the pandemic. But I do think we can get lazy with our own health. You can get I mean, there's so much at base. I work harder in a group workout class or with a trainer than I do if I put my peloton app on and try to do a strength class at home. Just saying like there's people there. People are pushing me it's the same thing with therapy. Like I could do telehealth, like it's easy to do that you can come you can talk whatever loosely about what you want to but there's a difference in like you said getting in your car driving to the office, setting up the appointment walking in the room like shutting the door like having the session for an hour then paying and leaving. Like there's a there's power to that. Yeah,
Chris Kaspar 9:53
no, I mean, just like last week, I've never ever been to the ER except we had foster kids. I took a couple of them to the ER because you had to because the system Yeah, but um, we had our daughter last last week, she had, she was hanging around some friends who had RSV, those of you who know RSV is a potential fatal thing for an eight week old baby. And so we called up two different doctors or we call up a doctor and our midwife and they both said, Oh, my gosh, takers, they are freaking out, like, and they're not alarmist. They're like, new here, like, we should go. And she was breathing funny and your eyes rolling back in her head. I was like, Okay, this is weird. So we took her to the ER, but the ER doctor said, Oh, she's fine, don't worry about it go home. But all it took was 30 seconds face to face in person, instead of us describing something in that medical professional had this a whole nother level of insight and sense. And the only way to get that was not us translating what was going on, but her to just look at our baby and say, Here you go. Yeah. And that's a very simple example. But when it comes to something as sophisticated and complex and nuanced, and intricate, and even romantic, I guess you could say, of mental health, there's so much that gets left on the table that you lose in the pixels.
Dr. Cassie Reid 11:03
I love that notice, because I think there's also some elements of facial like, half of I love to teach skills to my students, like that's one of my favorite classes is to help a counselor be more equipped in their skill. And I mean, a predominant amount of skill is actual body language position. It's watching a counselor you're sitting there observing is 100%. Because if someone's telling you something, but you're seeing their body like I'm fine, but you're seeing the tears well up or you're seeing, like when you're on a screen, I'm worried what how to read all of your body. Yes, no, but I just you don't get that you don't get that. I'm super relational to though I think in my nature, some and this is me, I'm being really like, bold to say, but I think there's some therapists who get into the profession who are more dogmatic, more systematic, and they like that about therapy, which is great. They're great therapists, and they get that type of clientele. The clientele I like, and the way I like to do therapy is very relational, very connected. So it doesn't make one good or bad, but it's just it's hard to get that when you're on zoom on another platform.
Chris Kaspar 12:08
Okay, so say we are going there. If if I am going to say I've got something my wife so first of all, just in general to set this pace. I'm a big fan of counseling, I believe strongly. My wife and I did premarital counseling. We did counseling right after premarital counseling right after we got married because we needed it. Yeah, first year marriage was tough. Yeah, it was it was not the honeymoon. And but now we're in the honeymoon, eight, nine years later, but but and even like, so I'm the chairman of the Dawn Casper Foundation, my grandfather passed away, left, left some money behind it. And i The number one thing we give to his counseling, I love them. And we just pay for counseling for people because I truly believe in the life transformation. So all that being said, if I'm in a place where I would love to reach out to a counselor, and maybe either for life circumstances, I can't go face to face or whatever, and I'm leaning towards going to do something digital. How do I find a digital? How would you recommend searching for mental health? Via zoom? Yeah, where do you even start because I interviewed nine counselors when we were looking for counselors to pay for their counseling services. And there was only two that cut the mustard.
Dr. Cassie Reid 13:16
I love that No. And that was my first thing I like to say to people is don't You don't have to accept the first person that you meet. It's like a relationship you want that person to, you want to feel good seeing that person, you don't want to force it or feel like you're made to be anything. So you don't ever have to stay with that person. If you don't feel chemistry or feel like you could connect. I think the biggest thing is looking at credentials and looking at their licensure, there's a lot of different things. I'm not anti coaching, I'm not anti some of that stuff that's popping up. But I went to 11 years of school. I have a master's degree and a PhD. So like, like that. There's 11 years and my Bachelor's all it took 11 years for me to be equipped to stand and say I am a therapist, you know, and that doesn't always take that long. But I think you can't hold that next to someone who hasn't completed college. It's just not it's not feasible. And I just think so looking at their credentials, looking at just who they are. Now, there's a lot of online services. Now they're offering telehealth, like you can do it on your phone, app base, things like that. But I think it's also looking at who the person is getting a feel for their age getting a feel for their experience, their expertise, I think that will tell you to I think they have to share your values. That's another thing is that matters to me is I want someone who understands my value system and where I come from because if we don't share our value systems, you're not going to understand when I say certain things that may be troublesome to me. You may be like that's not a big deal. But to me, that's like the number one problem. I'm
Chris Kaspar 14:47
talking like purpose. Yes. And I
Dr. Cassie Reid 14:51
think trying the different fits a lot. The beauty of the benefit I'm gonna get I'm not a big fan but the beauty of is there's a ton of these pulling clinicians And so now you have a lot to choose from. It's not like you've got five, but they try to match you. But you're welcome to say no, but it's like you've got a lot to choose from because they're pulling and pulling and pulling in hiring and hiring hiring condition clinicians all the time. So you have a plethora of choices, which is good. Okay,
Chris Kaspar 15:16
so kind of revisiting the question, there's options go test the author, yes, the waters, the waters, look for the resonance checkout credentials. But we've already talked about how it's less than ideal. So what would you say, you know, is the ideal path for somebody, maybe they can't at this moment. In the book, there's a certain pressing life issue. I mean, I have a good one of my best friends is going through a divorce right now. And like, you just sometimes things just happen urgently. You really need someone that you can trust to impact things with. So we start digital, or what would be your kind of ideal path for progressing through an issue or
Dr. Cassie Reid 15:50
Yeah, I mean, I think it's setting up how often you want to meet. I think consistency is key. I think a lot of my clients who come in consistently have a harder time processing through an issue once Yeah, yeah. So like, My ideal is every other week. Some people win, like a divorce or something. It's like every week, it's nice, you can check in, you know, somebody's there, somebody's gonna listen, another big thing is looking through confidentiality, that's huge. Just as that you make sure they understand. confidentially, most counselors will, but that's a big deal. You know, you don't want anything you're sharing. You want a safe place to share. I think it's the good thing is the time you can do anytime. But start. That's what I would say to people start don't don't wait like, yeah, maybe I'm not a fan of telehealth, maybe you're not many people aren't. But if that's what you have to do right now, do it like it's better to start and meet with somebody and at least start processing, you will get good out of it. It's not it's not all bad. I think it's just not the most ideal, maybe even with the intent that as things move on that you'd eventually get back in the office with that person. Because most people I find do have office spaces, they're not abandoning that fully. And they're still going to meet with
Chris Kaspar 16:54
in this industry, largely, people are still hanging on to the physical meeting in person. Yes, that's good.
Dr. Cassie Reid 16:59
Yeah. So I hope that answers that I think, but again, not being not being hesitant. Some some services even have a subscription model, which isn't bad, either. Because if you pay a flat fee, you get x access to your counselor a month, via emails or being sessions. And of course, they're hoping that you won't use them, but I say use them. Don't let them take your money without getting what you pay for. But it's kind of nice, because then you just you know, you have that access at any point.
Chris Kaspar 17:27
Awesome. So okay, so So wrapping up the conversation 10 years from now, I'm just curious, what do you think the societal perspective because right now, sort of the innovators are the ones who are making the digital counseling available? What what do you think we're gonna land? You know, 1015 years from now just thinking ahead? Where's the dust gonna settle, man, it's
Dr. Cassie Reid 17:49
hard to tell. Because I think 10 to 15 years, we're gonna have this generation now. That's middle school, high school, who actually value mental health. I just spoke at a conference last week. One of my sessions had like, 20 2500, Young Adult and middle schoolers, and they all are engaged and know about counseling and value having a counselor, it's almost like a badge of honor weirdly
Chris Kaspar 18:11
to some of them. So, um, as opposed to the badges.
Dr. Cassie Reid 18:15
I feel like that's coming. Like we're going to see these this generation come up who's like, no, it's healthy, you should process that my counselor said, you know, you'll hear some of that. I'm not sure. As far as technology goes, I feel like you're gonna see some counselors really pull to keep them person. But then you're also going to feel like the Jetsons kind of thing where you just dial up somebody and I know we're living in the Jetsons age kind of work, dial up somebody and you're able to just have that instantly. But I really do feel like the human connection is crucial. And the authentic attritional Gen Z and some of these jobs, it's like, they want to connect with you. And my teens actually will choose to come in office rather than choose. Like, they hate zoom. Like they're like, We do zoom for school. We don't want to do it. They're like, we want to come and see you.
Chris Kaspar 19:01
Well, that's the answer. I mean, you've got Gen Z is already saying, forget this garbage. I'm going face to face.
Dr. Cassie Reid 19:07
Yeah. So awesome. The Evolution is going backwards, which is good. Yeah,
Chris Kaspar 19:11
I think it needs to I mean, the pendulum swings so far to where we just realize we're disconnected. We're broken. And so then people and um, can you even be too relational or too connected? Is it possible? I
Dr. Cassie Reid 19:21
don't think not in my strengths. I think it's no I love those are my strengths 100% and connected with people people are like, feel to me. So it's like, I'm 100% extrovert on the Myers Briggs assessment if you've ever taken I'm
Chris Kaspar 19:34
an introvert. I'm like 90 percentage. Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Cassie Reid 19:38
So I'm 100. So people are my energy. And so it's so nice. Like, I love talking to people. I love being with people.
Chris Kaspar 19:44
So you finish the counseling session when people are crying their eyes out, and it's just been tough and arduous and they walk out and they're wiped and you're like, ready for the next one?
Dr. Cassie Reid 19:52
Sometimes depending on hard, but yeah, I am I'd feel alive. Like people are just like, oh, how do you leave it at work? And it's like, I don't know. It's just I'm blessed. still be able to lets you fulfill your purpose. It is I'm in my lane. Yes, I'm going as fast as I want. Awesome, for sure.
Chris Kaspar 20:06
All right, so you're talking about being in your lane and you said, you're in your sweet spot. Yes, I feel the same way. I mean, I love just helping people connect relationally. I mean, that's kind of what you're doing. And I feel like wise phone is tech. It's kind of a side door to doing that. But I feel like I'm in my lane as well. And it's just such a sweet place in life where I can be just as busy if I was doing something else, but it's meaningless. I mean, I have passion and purpose in what I'm doing here. And so what would be your big takeaway for people that are just filling a very common trend right now, which is discontentment or machinists in life, I don't know how to describe it. But what will be your final, you know, my final words of wisdom, just want
Dr. Cassie Reid 20:46
to say to you, like you were born for something like you were put on this earth to do something. And if you don't quite know what it is, or feel like you haven't found it, or maybe lost it, like, let's find it again, that's a great reason to have a counselor, it's a great reason to have people around you community around you. Because I think when we lose our purpose, like I said, we could have the Jets, we could go back to that could have private jets, you could have houses in every continent, but the reality is, you're not fulfilled. And so I think it's finding your sweet spot, finding who you are finding what you were born to do, and do it. And I think everything else falls into place. For majority, I could almost say every time I hate absolutes, but every time I see people who really pursue that, they're more content, the relationships are more satisfied, satisfying, they're more satisfied, no matter where they are, financially, no matter where they live in the country. It's like they're settled, because they're doing something that matters that brings them life and brings them joy. And I think that's really what I would say to you is find that space, find that place that what you're born to do.
Chris Kaspar 21:50
Those are words of wisdom. And I would just love to add on to that, that in the journey of finding because that's not something that you can just microwave is finding your passion, find your space. And so you mentioned, hey, unpack this for the counselor. Yeah, I would throw in there. You know, this takes nondistracted time. Yes. Yeah. Think about to pray about it. So whatever it takes to just do what it takes in the midst of that to pursue. I don't know if it's a week or longer, but it's like, it's worth revisiting. I mean, once a year I go, every year, I revisit this question, love, and I go and I take, I take a week, and it's just like, try to intentionally check out a lot of things that are distracting and just cast the vision for the year. And all it is is certainly that same question.
Dr. Cassie Reid 22:31
No, I do that too. And I think that's a great tip is find the time set that I know some people do it quarterly, like we'll do a week at the beginning of the year to kind of vision cast for the year. And, you know, the other thing I was gonna say in relation to that is that you're worth it. You know, people you're worth it, like, you're worth the investment. And I think that's the lie sometimes that we believe is that I'm not worth it. Let me make sure my kids are good. Or let me make sure my friends are good. Or let me make sure my partner is good. But the reality is your worth it, like you're worth that investment. And it's powerful. Like if we value ourselves than those around us, one will value us but also will value themselves because they see us doing that.
Chris Kaspar 23:12
Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time. This is interesting. I'm gonna sit into on this for weeks now, particularly the whole remote counseling thing and how that interacts and where the world's going there. But thanks for giving us a peek behind the scenes into your world. It's fascinating and grateful for your insight perspective.
Dr. Cassie Reid 23:29
No, thanks for having me. I'm so excited about what you're doing. And I'm behind it. 100%. Great. Okay.
Chris Kaspar 23:35
I've got one more bonus question. Actually, I just remembered so. Okay, bonus question here. So I have talked to many mental health professionals, authors, speakers, about when we were creating milestone as part of the process, but I've never publicly because I'm not a big sales guy. I hate like being promotional about stuff. I've been more promotional on this conversation than I ever have in previous talks. But I would love quickly, just what is your perspective on wife's phone? I mean, you're somewhat familiar with the product. And just what's your two cents on it?
Dr. Cassie Reid 24:05
You know, I mean, as a mental health professional a puts a boundary boundaries are a thing that we talk about all the time in counseling, I mean, pretty much any session, I could bring it
Chris Kaspar 24:13
out the book. Yeah.
Dr. Cassie Reid 24:16
I feel like we did right into it. I love both of them so much. But it's like, it's like, yeah, but people need to know how to set them how to set up boundaries. So what I think it does is it does that for you. It's like you're able to set boundaries with yourself, you're able to set boundaries with people in your commit, you're able to just set a boundary to say I'm not going to be governed by technology, it removes the armwrestling match with yourself. It does and I love that because I think as people if I can think one less if I can have one less thing to think about to set a boundary for that frees me then to set a boundary somewhere else because there's going to be something else in my life that's going to need my attention. Probably something more important. Yeah. So and I think that's the fallacy is we've put things on the thrones of our lives that are not even deserve Serving to sit there. And I think we've done that with even social media just use social media that is sitting on the throne of so many people's lives. So horrible. Like, that is not what I want to be king of my life at all. There's so many other things that that I want to sit there.
Chris Kaspar 25:16
Yeah. And there's no silver bullet. But our goal with wise film was to be that boundary for people, but it's one boundary that actually tackles a whole bunch. I mean, the whole social media thing it gets rolled out. Yeah, the whole like, I mean, it cuts out 20 things and it's baked in and it's unbeatable. And so that's definitely part of it's coming.
Dr. Cassie Reid 25:33
I mean, I really feel like this. It's like we talked about even the Gen Z. It's like people are coming back and I think it's it's ahead of it's not ahead of its time. It's actually for right now, but it's just I think we're gonna see more and more people be like, forget that I want to be in the present.
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