Chris Kaspar sits with fellow entrepreneur and business leader, Keith Brown, to debate working remote vs. working in the office and what companies need to do to make employees successful!
Introduction 0:00
Thanks for joining us for another Techless Talk, where we explore how consumer technology shapes our relationships, health and culture. Here's your host, Techless founder, Chris Kaspar.
Chris Kaspar 0:13
Hey, everyone, welcome to another Techless Talk. We have our first ever debate. I mean, I've prepared for not any hours for this conversation. But I had been kind of preparing the last two years with Techless and building things. But we want to talk about I want to talk about remote work versus in person. It's a big, big discussion right now. I mean, and so I have a good friend of mine. He's an advisor on the Techless advisory board. He's helped us out with marketing. But I've heard Keith Brown speak and you are a remote work advocate one hundred percent. Yeah, you have spoken. I think I said it in a national conference where you are like the keynote speaker on pro advocating for remote work, how to do it well, and I am very much so in the opposite camp. I love face to face. And so first of all, I just give you the for what's your case, for your biggest reasons why? For remote work, but before we do that, actually, I want to know what your perspective is on Apple right now, Apple just this week, like threw down the hammer and said we are requiring people to come back to work and people are quitting and they're angry and they're upset. So what's, what's your two cents on that?
Keith Brown 1:24
Well, it's not just Apple, right? It's it's Uber. It's all these companies, they're going back and forth, because they don't have a policy. And so what I would say more than anything else is you have to have a policy. So there's no right or wrong here. It's just one of us has to have a belief system on it. And Apple needs to have one. I'd say Apple's biggest problem is not office or remote. It's that they continue to flip flop. Okay, so by the end of this conversation, Techless is officially going to have a policy on remote work. That's my goal. Well, 100%, we got to flush it out. It'd be remote, right? No, it's gonna be hybrid right in person. Okay. All the way.
Chris Kaspar 2:01
You'll be able to defend it. Yeah, no, that's good. Okay, so got to have a policy. I'm thinking of business owners or people that are, everyone's stuck in the nebulous zone right now. That's what we're facing right now. So you're saying just no matter what, it's more important to be out of the nebulous zone than to be there, even if it's hostile to your tightly held perspect.
Keith Brown 2:19
Because I would say that remote work is closely tied to your strategy. And so if you don't know what your office policy is, or in person versus remote, I would argue really don't have a clear vision or strategy for where you're going. And your teams have no idea how they can support you.
Chris Kaspar 2:32
Okay. Okay. So clarity is more important than this debate. 100%. Okay. Awesome. So, where are you at? What's your case for remote work in a nutshell here?
Keith Brown 2:44
Yeah. So I mean, I think for me experiencing it while I was at Aha, which was one of the fastest growing companies in the country, remote or office. And this was all pre pandemic. Yeah, this is when nobody really cared that much. I mean, it was just one of these, like employee benefits that they handed out, right, there was a very small list of them. But what I used to joke and say is that because we weren't commuting into the office, we would get more work done before our competitors got into the office every day. So it's an efficiency thing for you. So it started off, I think, is efficiency, you don't realize, especially in places like New York, the Bay Area, it can really be anywhere you're commuting, the commute factor is the biggest draw. So I would say if you're a pro office person, and a pro, live close by the office person or not be in a highly congested metropolitan area, then you have a shot, okay. But if you were debating me from the Bay Area, or New York or Chicago, you don't even have a chance. So if I have to drive an hour plus to work, then it's not worth it in the story period, right? Because not just the time your teams are spending, commuting, the mental fatigue and energy, by the time they're into the office, they've spent so much energy getting into the office and out the door that their creative energy is actually really low. And that what you'll find is that they'll rebound some point in the mid morning, right before they head out to go to lunch, sit in traffic go to lunch again, they come back in another spike in the mid morning. And so you're really actually getting two to three hours of productivity in a given day.
Chris Kaspar 3:03
Okay, so you're playing the productivity card? And what about I'm gonna throw a wrench in this because what about Tesla, so I bought a Tesla for the sole reason, because I was driving to Austin, which is an hour and a half from my house to work downtown. And that commute. I completely agree. The commute was tough, but I bought it because it can drive itself. So I literally touch my steering wheel about four times for an hour and a half. And I've reduced my fatigue about 80%. Right. So what's your response in that on the efficient I get? Yeah, I probably shouldn't say I'm not gonna say it out loud. I'm not gonna say what I do when the car is driving itself. On the Record.
Keith Brown 4:47
Well, I know, I know. So for me, and lots of companies have tried to solve this, right. So I have friends that work at Google and Google, at least I don't know what they do today, but pre COVID. They had an elaborate busing system, where they would bus people in their buses would have high powered Wi Fi. So they tried to solve these things. And I think good companies were already trying to give people that timing back. But I would say even beyond an efficiency thing, if you want to go into the car driving itself, that's just an additional cost. And so for larger organizations, the cost savings, remote work are just magnified. But I would argue that bigger companies are actually the only companies that can even afford to have an office, especially early stage, it's so much more efficient to just be remote as you get off the ground. But if you're not driving the car, and Robo taxis are a thing, and five or 10 years. Yeah, it's gonna be the question of am I as efficient typing while my robo taxis driving down the road?
Chris Kaspar 5:42
Okay. So it's efficiency. There's a major cost factor to it. And I mean, we're early stage startup. I mean, we're two years in but earlier, I mean, we still meet in a house. Right? That's kind of our home headquarters when we weren't doing co working in downtown Austin. Right. And so I understand that. So one of the challenges and this is where I, so I'm, I love face to face stuff. I mean, actually, I just finished an interview with your sister. Yeah, who is a mental health professional. She's got a PhD, Dr. Reid, and she was a big advocate. Also, she might even be in my in the same chair here. She does counseling, okay, right. And she's dealing with very sophisticated, nuanced, complicated situations and relationships. And she takes cues off of nuances and body language and stuff. And for me, the thing is, what I'm doing is so deep Tech, I mean, and so when we do that, I feel like it's worth hopping on a plane and flying over the ocean, sometimes to tackle serious problems. And that that just there's value that gets lost over zoom in the pixels is the way I describe it. So what's your perspective on that? I wouldn't say that I'm 100%, you have to be remote all the time person either. I completely agree with you.
Keith Brown 6:52
I think where where I would disagree is that the majority of work can't be done remotely and isn't better remote. There are times when you absolutely have to get together, especially in those early moments. I would agree there's no replacement for that. And because I have argued and had these debates in person, I would say that this very debate would be slightly awkward on Zoom. So the actual word versus office debate. I'm not above saying it's actually better in person with you. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad I'm here. Nearby, right? Definitely. Yeah. So and there's people, different leaders have different styles, I know you and you are a wonderful in person collaborator. So I think you need to round boring. My email etiquette with right, which is what I went back to my previous point, know yourself, know, the culture you're you're trying to build. And the thing is where companies are getting in trouble is you're trying to do both. Yeah, there are lots of people like you who say, I might work remotely some of the time, but majority of time I want to be around people. If you make that stance, you'll attract those people to your organization. And vice versa, the remote companies saying, I mean, the majority of work will be remote, and we will get together for planning, we will get together to meet up and have fun and celebrate. They'll attract the right people to but we're you know, Uber came out. I don't know if you heard their chief people officer was on public record and a Wall Street Journal article and several others saying our office is our secret sauce. Yeah, it costs us everything. We're going back to the office. And then just like Apple, they flip flopped. And the same reporter said, but you're on record saying if it costs everything, we're going back to the office, and now you're saying you're not because it's costing you people. That's the problem I think folks are getting into, it's this existential crisis that has risen to the surface because of this situation of COVID. And absolutely, no one's ever had to really dive into it. Right, philosophically yet, right, give it a year. And this will become a little more concrete where companies stay on it. All right, yeah.
Chris Kaspar 8:45
Okay, so I feel like, initially, I thought we were here, I feel like we've talked a little bit, we're a little bit closer to one another, especially when there's situation I mean, you're bidding on situational, I mean, my team, I've got people all over the world that we're working on. And so I'm not, I'm not dogmatic about this in person. But I do drive, we are opening up an office up in Dallas, just because that's where some of our talents gonna be. And I valued and collaborating with one another. So all that being said, I feel like we're a little bit closer, but I want to dive into some one of the greatest challenges that I've seen. And this is the hard part for me. And this is just a overarching philosophical thing that I've observed. To give you some context, I worked at a fifth generation family business manufacturing business, okay. And we did a lot of sheet metal manufacturing type of things. And we had, you know, 50 years ago, we had best way to describe it highly competent people doing machine work, machinist, okay. And we have seen just a massive deterioration of the number of people that are willing to put forth the effort and the skill to do those same jobs. Now, a lot of it's because China's outsourced or people want a different standard of living people don't want to get their hands dirty, whole nine yards. So we've seen a massive cultural shift, which has made a major challenge to that manufacturing company. So I'm seeing a trend right now. Now, onset by remote work, and the best, I'll just call it what it is. It's just straight up laziness. I see a lot of people using the excuse of remote work. And I have friends that work for Apple getting paid buku money. And they're not working. They're putting in two hours a week. And I mean, just I have family members that I love dearly in are awesome, awesome people. And they're putting in five hours effective week anyway, the trend is way more on the side of people not actually working and people are working in they're abusing that right. And so that's my greatest hesitation when it comes to all this stuff is I as an employer, right and deeply untrustworthy and distraught by the idea of hiring people. You should be. You should be Yeah, right.
Keith Brown 10:43
So I'm not unaware of those trends and those things. As an advocate of remote work. It's my job to know the dark, dirty secrets of remote work, such as people mailing it in people starting different remote jobs and faking illnesses. And being in the hospital, people working multiple remote jobs, there's actually private discord servers that are spun up right now on how to multitask and get a job and work a second. I mean, it's just it's all over the place. But I would say your argument is exactly the same as saying, I don't believe in marriage, because 50% of marriages end in divorce. And I would say it doesn't mean there's something wrong with the institution of marriage. That means that there are a lot of people that don't go about it the right way. And so what I would advocate for as much as I would advocate for remote work is proper remote management training. Because to me, what you have is a lot of people that went remote and think about where the incentive lies, right? You talked about someone at Apple, who's working two hours a week may or may not, you know, be true, yeah, that person is incentivized to work as least amount as possible and get the maximum amount of income. That's the way people are motivated, starting his own company. Right. It's all happening, right? But but his his manager, the person managing his work, I promise you doesn't have the right checks and balances and training and accountability and oversight in place, not micromanagement. But to start the week, what does that person responsible for? Do they have the right goal setup? Do they have the right check in setup? And so what I think is going to happen is we're going to go full circle from people are, are lazy to, yeah, if you had an office, and there was no buddy watching people would be the same thing. The difference in the office is we have hundreds, if not 1000s, of years of what is oversight look like in an office. It looks like a manager, it looks like open cubicle space, it looks like regular check ins, it looks like, you know you don't give someone a private office who doesn't deserve that office. Right? So I've been in both with remote work, there's a completely different set of best practices, checks, balances and accountability. And that's where I think there's going to be a big, big opportunity.
Chris Kaspar 12:54
Yeah, and that's what I guess that being frank, that's what intimidates me. I mean, I don't have that experience. And I don't have the knowledge. And even I mean, I'm such a face to face guy. That's how we get stuff done. But like, I am adamantly against time tracking philosophically, like I have fought to the death, as HR department in its previous companies, but I hate people feeling like they're on the clock and all this. But at the same time, with remote work, I see this degradation of oh, I'll just get an hour in here, slip at 30 minutes in here, and it ends up becoming a very short work day. Yeah. And so record for me, the challenge I face is like, how do you reconcile what I'm tracking, which is an accountability mechanism, right, with a salaried employee, that you just want to give free rein to go and do your job.
Keith Brown 13:37
What I think we're going to shift to and this is what I'm really excited about is what I think remote work is going to enable and empower is it's going to root out the inefficiency that's always been in the office, because again, I've managed large teams in office and large teams remote. The lie is that by default, the office culture is productive, the office is net was never productive. It's just what you're seeing is that people are working the same amount of time at home or in an office. But when they're home, they're not going to be at their computer, they're going to go do other stuff. That's the difference. Right? So what I would say is what this is going to create. And what I'm excited about is that inefficiency is going to get rooted out in both places in the office and remote. So I would just ask you, you know, you're asking me some great questions I would ask you is why is hours or productivity the measure? Because in the end of the day, if you didn't measure people based on their outcome, versus their their hours, do you really care about the hours? Has anyone ever really cared? Right? JP Morgan is famously saying, We gotta we gotta come back to the office. All the big banks are a lot of them. Except Citi who hired the first female CEO of all the big banks in their history. She promptly surveyed all the employees, and they said, We're burnout. We're stressed out, we want to take Friday's off. And again, you would look at that and I might have to and say that's laziness. They just talked themselves into a four day work week. But if they have quotas, if they have numbers and they hit them in two hours or 40 hours, I frankly don't care if they find ways to be more productive, because again, it's a results based environment.
Chris Kaspar 15:15
So I'm hearing kind of the solution come to mind is you're saying, okay, offices, okay. But that's a little less than the ideal. So remote work is ideal, but it has to be paired with the right accountability mechanisms, and really hyper focused on results. That's, that's your secret sauce, I guess, in unlocking this and making it valuable as what are the results that are coming out of this individual?
Keith Brown 15:15
What are the results, and then I think it allows you as a leader, or manager or a business owner, to not have that fret or worry, because, you know, I, I was a psychology major in school. And the thing you realize is that people's time shrinks or expands to fit the time they're given. And so what I think you might find is that someone would do 40 hours a week in an office. And they might say, Well, I only actually needed five hours to do that project. Okay, so So we're focused on results. Sure. Business is an infinite war, meaning you can put I could put 120 hours a week into it, right? And I could just, there's always more to be done no matter what. Yep, there's always more people you can try to get on your on social media. So how do you measure results in an infinite scenario where there's always more to be done? Awesome. This is, again, this is why I'm such a big advocate, because I think remote work is like the atomic bomb in this whole mess that we call like office business collaboration, it's just a mess. The other thing that's a mess is that person that is working for that company two hours a week, I would argue they're not properly incentivized to work for that company. If you truly had an ownership stake in a company, you were truly bought into the company, you felt like that you were excited about the idea, you would work more than the allotted time. And when I'm really excited about roles and jobs and companies and visions, I put in way more work than they know. And so that to me, again, is remote work is the great truth serum, honestly, because you put someone at home with no accountability, they're going to work as much as they want to work. The office was the whole idea of well, we're gonna give you a task this week. And you have to be here. That to me in a very just altruistic sense of the world. That's what I think it's doing. So I think you might have come in expecting me to say, here's my remarks better. There's no problems, no flaws. I actually love it. Because it's the great innovation cocktail of I think the modern business world, if people aren't incentivized they're going to work two hours a week and find a way to start their own thing because they really weren't bought in to begin with, to the company. Right? If they don't have set goals or anything, then you're gonna say, Well, I didn't work much. Do you really care? Why? Why? Why 40? You know, I think it was, it was a Scandinavian country. I don't know if it was Sweden, perhaps it might have been Iceland, they just did an experiment taking all of their work down, I think to 30 hours a week, or 28 hours a week.
People accomplished as much or more in that amount of time. So again, who who's lying the 40 hour workweek office? Or the 20? What is it right? And that's why I'm saying I think on both sides, there's room to improve the way we work and collaborate.
Chris Kaspar 18:22
So the office has become a shroud, a veil over inefficiencies and remote work is like it's the true litmus test of understanding really, how good is this organization? Really? how trustworthy is this individual?
Keith Brown 18:36
That's all it is. Yahoo, was one of the most famous Yahoo and IBM before COVID, were some of the most famous remote work failures, right? IBM called all the remote people back, Yahoo, Marissa Meyer tried to send them home then call them all back. Those are two cultures that were really struggling to find their identity. I would say IBM is found it through some acquisitions like Red Hat. That's where most of their growth is coming from. But IBM as a culture was really struggling. So as Yahoo, they were passed around and bought by different companies. And they sent everyone home but with no strategy. They had no idea what they were doing. So that's what I think it is. It's a great list. Litmus test, especially in big organization. So
Chris Kaspar 19:15
this is like the torture test. I mean, really, it makes me want to go and just call the remote work week, and just see how little or much gets done. And then I'll have right here inside how good we are as an organization. Again, I
Keith Brown 19:28
go back to in as someone who is fascinated by not just working relationships, but personal relationships. I'll go back to the marriage analogy. If someone is unfaithful and cheats on a spouse or partner, was it the problem of the person who approached them? Or was it their problem? Right? Why do certain people not trust their partner on business trips? Is it the business trips problem, or is the fact that the business trip is the opportunity? That's all I'm saying? People are mad at remote work, I'm saying If I if you had a camera, and I think this is actually coming, because I think like, people like you and me, we're gonna sit there thinking, I wonder if I just had a camera on all the time watching what they're doing, or maybe they have to embed a screen sharing app and I just I just if I see their face, believe the screen, I know they're not working, and it just automatically logs FaceTime or screen time. I think those apps are totally coming down the line.
Chris Kaspar 20:23
I mean, a fan of those,
Keith Brown 20:25
I think they they cover up that people are always gonna find their way around them is what I think, right? Just like in the office, people always found their way around, you know, okay, I have another window open, and maybe I'm surfing the net and my boss comes. Work, right, people from New Orleans find their way around them. But what I think you'll find is that the people who are really bought in two really exciting jobs doing really exciting things. They're working great from home. And to your point, I would put that back on the founder is if you're not casting a great vision, if you don't have an exciting problem to solve, if you're like, hey, wait around three weeks for this thing to fix. I don't sorry, you need to wait. But don't be remote. I know if you wait from home, you're not going to work because you're you're checked out right now. It's going to put the onus on companies to move fast and move efficiently. I'll tell you one more story. And then I'll let you ask another another question or give me a great rebuttal because you've been awesome so far. A woman quit her job. They called everyone back into the office, she got childcare for children. She organized her whole day, first day back, she was so excited. She drove she commuted a long way into the office, she comes in, and the most inefficient meeting was run, someone forgot to bring the plans. You know, there was a confusion on the start time. And then 30 minutes in one of the managers said, Well, we just don't need this meeting altogether. And she quit that day. Because the meeting had no structure, no plan. And so what was the problem? Was it or letter office? No, it was that remote and office that dynamic revealed a poor planning culture and an inability to scale and execute.
Chris Kaspar 21:56
That's interesting. So like, techlace, so much of what we're about is vulnerability and transparency. I mean, if our phone keeps track of every single call your message look yes in history. And guess what? Yeah, husbands and wives have access to each other's stuff, right. And it's not for everyone. And it's a super high degree of uncomfortable accountability. And it seems to me like doing remote work, in your opinion in a way that it feels the same way. To me. It's like just exposing a business and exposing a person fully. Here's what's going on the dynamics. And so it's very risky. It is risky. And so that's what's been, that's what I've been nervous about. Right is the risk involved.
Keith Brown 22:35
And I'll tell you, as a business owner, I'll tell you, you know, in my time at AEI, I averaged between 60 and 80 hours of work. And I worked seven days a week, because I was bought in and sold out on that mission. So you talk about the two hours, but I'm telling you that the other side is equally as dangerous. Because when I was there, I was up at 5am. I was at my computer all day. I would work until 10 o'clock at night. I would get up on Saturdays go go to my office and work I work seven days a week.
Chris Kaspar 23:02
Okay, so you're an A player? I mean, obvious. Yeah. But how about the people that are b See me kind of back to the whole fifth generation family business manufacturing, this just general degradation, I mean, help wanted signs everywhere, in general, is very difficult to find people that even have the propensity to be excited, because they even have the capacity for passion, right? You just described, right? I mean, and there is a necessity for that. I mean, you need people that just come and just do stuff, right? And they don't have to be the 80 hour week type of person. How do you deal with that nebulous zone of people that can't become impassioned? Or maybe it may not be the fault of the organization? Sure. Capacity?
Keith Brown 23:40
Well, I think it's hard to really break apart that question into the part that touches remote work, in my opinion. And the big part of that question that touches attention spans and technology, and entitled, there's just there's so many things that question touches, that doesn't have anything to do with with remote work.
Chris Kaspar 23:58
Well, yeah, so it's, I guess it's a tidal wave of situational things that are beyond your control. Right? And so that's what I'm asking is, how do we respond? Because the truth is, is that pool of people that can be passion? Sure, is getting smaller and smaller and smaller? I mean, probably even 15 years ago, right? It was twice as many people as I feel like it is in this new generation of workforce. And so yeah, it'd be nice to have those people but they just can't fill every role. Yeah. So so how do you respond to the tidal wave in the stuff that is within your control? Right?
Keith Brown 24:27
I think it starts with just radical transparency, because to me, that's a person problem, a motivation problem, but what they're probably not going to want to admit is that they're not quite sure what they want to do with their lives. They're working for in this machinist role, or maybe there's machinist who shouldn't be there. And maybe there's people who think they should be in technology, who really should be machinists. And so I think the only way personally, that I think we can solve that is be by being radically honest. And I mean, as a remote person, you have to have the guts when You feel like someone worked a two hour day to get on with them the next day and be like, Hey, I just what's going on? Yeah,
Chris Kaspar 25:06
so I'm speaking to small business owners. I mean, you've got a customer service rep, that's remote, I luckily have one that's super trustworthy. And it's just world class and amazing. But that can easily be a role that I could have that very frank conversation with. And you're saying just had the courage, that's a critical part of the equation, have the courage to just speak out and say, right, is this I'm smelling this, is this, right? What's going on here? Right? Because
Keith Brown 25:28
the thing is to let's just try to be empathetic to that type of individual as well. People that that work for us, who may not have the ability to say I want to take a couple hours off to be with a sick kid or something like that. I'm telling you, they may work a couple hours less, because they're literally distracted at home being remote. But the productivity drain in the office, I would say if you monitor their productivity will be just as bad because their mind is somewhere else. Because they're distracted. You know, think about a mom or a dad who's in the office, they know they have a sick kid, do you think they're performing? They may be in that chair, eight hours, but do you think they're doing their best work? They're not
Chris Kaspar 26:05
I've bailed in the middle of the workday sometimes, because I'm just like, I'm not there. I'm not. And I have the ability to just do that I have freedom where I can just leave and go and walk for a couple hours. Right? Right. So I understand
Keith Brown 26:15
that. And that's, and that's why so I think it's just gonna force a lot of wonderful conversations. And in the end, in the same way that you as a nonprofit disclose where your funding may come from, or you disclose as a person, the the endorsements you have as an athlete's right, I believe that companies are going to have to disclose, here's our policy. We believe that people should be in the office, or here's our remote policy. We believe that people should be at their desk this many hours a week, and we expect this many hours a week of productivity. And if for some reason you can't do that, let us know.
Chris Kaspar 26:49
Okay, good. Well, I got to take away from this. That's good. Okay, I've got two more questions. One's the antagonist. Yeah, kids, I've got four daughters, under the age of five, you have two daughters. And they like to knock on the door, and our walls are thin, and it's a distraction. And they don't understand that right when I'm gone. And they resent technology. And it's just like, I've worked in the house for all of like, three weeks, and I was like, I gotta get out of here. I gotta run. I gotta set up an office, I just didn't work for me. Because of that you're given some really good solutions or things to chew on. What's your perspective on kids and babies and distractions of life that just happened? Yeah, audibly. What a
Keith Brown 27:27
crazy season, you've just gone through, I think about before COVID. It was very rude or inappropriate to have kids on screen background noise in the remote companies, because they were very cut up. If you interviewed with background noise, you wouldn't get the job because you don't know how to present yourself. COVID throw all that out the window, right? CNN, CNBC is broadcasting live news with kids in the background. So there, you know, the level of professionalism, there was a lot of grace for that. Okay. So I'd say there's a lot more grace for that, because we're all just humans now. But just like I'm saying, every company needs to know whether or not they're an office based culture or remote or a hybrid, I think every person has to take a hard look at themselves and their situation and say, my family, my partner, my kid, whatever it is, is this setup for remote work. So that's why I'm saying I think this just has to force a lot of deep conversations, do I have the the spouse or the childcare to be able to do that, because I will tell you, that being at home, you have to if you have a roommate, or if you're married, or even if you're just in a relationship, that other person is just as responsible for your success as a remote worker than anything else, when you go, I have two hours of meetings. And that's a partnership, right? Because that that kid knocking on the door, hopefully your child's not out there without supervision. So there's probably someone out on spouse them like that. So there's someone out there and so they need to know that this is your private time. And and the kids need to know that as well. But it's it's a challenge. But that's why I just say it's deep thought all the way around. The big issue, which I'll go back to, you know, one final time is no one's thinking this through deeply. Companies are making rash decisions. People are making rash decisions. I'll tell you after four years of being at Aha, I didn't miss people. I didn't want to go back. A lot of us were getting memberships at co working spaces just to be around people. So there is that feeling and you need to note there'll be seasons and ebbs and flow in life where remote maybe best office maybe best part time maybe best, but companies need to know who they are. And people need to know what works best for them.
Chris Kaspar 29:33
Okay, yeah, this is good, because so much of what techlace does is we're asking, we're putting situations in people's lives through our technology that forces him to ask the deeper questions to live more intentionally and confront the reality of some things that might be less than ideal and remote work does the same thing. Yes. Which is exactly the opposite of what I was into this conversation.
Keith Brown 29:54
You know, me it's all about the heart, Chris. Gosh, why would I make some pontificating stand About one or the other, it's about the heart.
Chris Kaspar 30:01
Yeah. Fascinating. Okay, so final question, then if I'm a, well, I've tried to put it in two different ways. If I'm a manager, and I'm wrestling or a CEO or a business owner, or you know, HR person, I'm wrestling with the decision of how to handle this. You this whole interview has already provided tremendous insight into this. But just carte blanche, what would be your advice? Here's a blank sheet of paper, make a work, remote work policy coming out of COVID?
Keith Brown 30:31
Right? Well, as a, as a founder of a company, you have a clear vision for the company have a clear vision for the work culture, and stick to it. And in the same way, if you interviewed someone, and they said, Well, I don't like the product you're building, I want to build this product, you would say, well, this probably isn't the right company for you, and you do it respectfully. And the same way you have to know your vision for the product for techlace. And your vision for the culture and stick to it. Even if, in today's world of remote and flexibility. Even if you think it seems crazy and counterintuitive. Your idea in and of itself is a bold, innovative idea. I mean, I love techlace I love what you stand for stand for the same thing with your culture. Yeah. And don't be afraid to do it. You will lose people. Yeah. So you will lose people that that resign because they want that flexibility. You will have interviews with talented individuals who say, I'm not going to relocate. But how is that different from finding your vision for other people? Yeah.
Chris Kaspar 31:26
So I mean, Apple did that. They said, We're going to have people come back for three days out of the UN work day, and they had 1600 People sign a petition or something. I don't know exactly what they did. But 69 People said, We don't like this and we're causing a ruckus. Right. And they stuck to their guns, which is great response was we're sticking to our guns. So they did it right.
Keith Brown 31:45
Yes, it's a very difficult and I also try to have empathy for businesses, what a tremendously difficult time because Apple had the luxury of interviewing, if there were 600 people went Apple interview those 600 people, they were able to measure the individual against their needs. But what COVID did is it made every company kind of sit on the defensive, because for the first time health, I mean, think about it, when's the last time it talking about health and safety and vaccines? And anything else was appropriate work talk? I mean, what a difficult time for company. So I would say, give yourself patience, but stick to your guns. And if you're apple, and you built this $5 billion headquarters, lose the 1600 people, if that's what you stand for. But the problem is, I don't think they know. And I don't think they're able to count the true cost.
Chris Kaspar 32:34
So I'm just gonna assume the answer to the second part of that question, which is, if you're an individual, yeah, and you're looking for a job, it's no what you want? And that's the answer,
Keith Brown 32:46
right? Know what you want. And be very honest about it. Right? It's a challenging thing, even for myself. I mean, you know, I'd be lying if I said that there are times where I don't struggle with what's the right amount of output for me in a given week. I've been on both sides. I've worked way too hard. And I've worked on enough. So I've asked the same question. And I think just being honest about what you need, and what you can give, I have interviewed people during COVID. And they were interviewing me from their car, because they were taking their kids to daycare where they didn't have childcare. And they couldn't ask for a 30 hour a week job because they needed full time with with benefits, right. But I think if companies were able to be more flexible and more open, then you know, that mom could say, which is what she needs to say, I can only give 30 hours a week, I can only give 20 hours a week. But I'm gonna lie to you and say I'm working full time now because I needed benefits. No, that's good. So I think we if we create and foster that transparent culture, we're gonna get everyone being exactly where they can be
Chris Kaspar 33:50
awesome. No, and that helps me I was in an interview last week, and I had a grandmother who said, I can work sporadically. And we put on her on projects that she can own. And she says the dates ahead of time, and she can put in five days, one week, seven days, another week and zero days, the next week, because she's owning that. And that was super helpful to me. So that was a blessing to have that degree of clarity, right interview. So
Keith Brown 34:11
love it. That's great. That's great. And thank you for fostering that because I promise there'll be more transparency that comes out of her as you accept whatever title she can give.
Chris Kaspar 34:19
Okay, well, sounds good. Well, thanks. Well, I think you might have redeemed remote work, at least to some degree. Okay. I still am going to be I am going to be the policy of face to face or company culture. That's probably where I'm gonna land on this. But I do see some benefits in the torture test that is as far as unpacking where a company is culturally, and it might just undergo that some. So I think you've given us all a whole lot to think about. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thanks. Very inspiring and thought provoking. Yeah, not is exactly the opposite of what I was expecting. Yeah, so But thanks so much. Yeah, appreciate
Keith Brown 34:55
it. Okay.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai