Chris and Jon sit down with media tech expert, Carley Knobloch, and talk practical tips on striking the balance between ubiquity and addiction while taking advantage of the good in technology. Are we creating incredible lives or wasting them?
Introduction 0:00
Hey, thanks for joining us for another Techless Talk, where we explore how consumer technology shapes our relationships, health and culture.
Jon Lentz 0:14
Well, hey, everyone, welcome to Techless Talk. I'm John.
Chris Kaspar 0:16
And I'm Chris. And we are the co-founders of Techless, where we create pure and simple technology for intentional living.
Jon Lentz 0:24
Today, we're going to be diving into how tech and relationship work together and sometimes how they butt heads with each other. And we are so excited to be joined by Carley Knobloch for our conversation. Carley is a digital lifestyle expert on a mission to help people improve their relationships with technology, one tap or swipe at a time. She's a regular contributor on the Today Show and CNN and a technology consultant and hosts for HDTV's annual smart home. Carley has been featured in Real Simple, Red Book, Good Housekeeping and Alure magazines. She lives in Los Angeles with her family and a bunch of smartphones and one Wisephone. Right, Carley?
Carley K 1:01
Yeah, absolutely. Just throw it on the pile? No, no, it's wonderful. Wonderful to be here with you guys. I'm so excited for the conversation that we're going to be having that I have all the time with friends, family, my audience on the web and, and just about everyone these days.
Chris Kaspar 1:20
Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks for being here, Carley, I'm going to kick it off with the first question here. But before I do, I gotta say I am fired up for this conversation. Because just doing some prep for this episode, I got to read your tagline. It's helping people improve their relationships with tech, one swipe at a time. And I get excited about this. I mean, this is right, what we're doing. And so I want to know, kind of what's the backstory? How did you land on that?
Carley K 1:43
Yeah, you know, so well, sort of the way back story is that I've always been a little bit more tech forward than your average girl, I really got I got a Mac in 1984. And that computer to me, we had some computers in the house before then. And of course, I'm aging myself here. But that really was spoke to me so much more in the sense that now I can reflect look back, rather, and see that it was really about creation and not about consumption. So you know, the video game consoles, or the Commodore 64 that we had in the house that was really more for playing games. And then here comes MAC Paint and Mac right, I was an English Lit major in college and an artist as a kid of all kinds of modalities. So here comes digital graphic design, and, and, you know, word processing, and I was just in heaven. So that was really, you know, the first time that I fell hard for technology. But I always was looking at what's going on in the in the personal tech space, what's going on, in just how I can keep my life better organized with the Newton, I actually had a Newton, and then a palm pilot. And then of course, the first iPhone. And then, you know, when I started really working with because sort of this whole tech lifestyle expert thing was really born out of a coaching practice that I had, I was a life coach working with a lot of women who are really high functioning in the world, and we're looking to technology to help them kind of better make sense of their lives better organize their lives, help them sort of save time and money and sanity in their lives. And, but but very quickly became clear that this was going to be sort of, you know, a significant other in all of our relationships, in the family in our, you know, sort of romantic dynamic with our kids. And so how I could help people really navigate how to have a successful relationship became very much of interest to me.
Chris Kaspar 4:00
So yeah, you've always been on the forefront, always on the cutting edge. And you were inspired by that early nugget, that spark of creative potential within it. But then at one point, you realize that it's not all roses, you know, there's there's a there's a dark side, I don't know if Is there a moment that you can think of where it like clicked and you're like, I actually need to help in this. I need to help people with the relationships with this significant other as you use it.
Speaker 4 4:25
Yeah, you know, I started my business in 2010. And really started doing a lot of stuff very quickly in the media on the Today Show, and then later on with HDTV. And there was this amazing article in The New York Times right at the end of 2019. Right at the close of the decade that was called 2010 to 2020, the decade where tech lost its way. And when I saw that article title, forget about reading the article, which was sort of like a retrospective of the last 10 years that I had spent being this kind of digital evangelist It really spoke to me, because it reflected so much of my ambivalence about this whole genre that I had become kind of the Pied Piper of it was like I was the girlfriends guide. And in the beginning, it was all about, you know, sort of the honeymoon period, right was like, come along with me, and there's all these great apps, and they're gonna help you solve all these problems in your life, I'm going to show you which ones are worth downloading. And it was, you know, it was such a lovely moment of empowerment, for my audience to just kind of use this new device as the remote control for their lives and really save time with it. And then just like any relationship, right, you know, you start to have red flags that you can't ignore, you start to have to ask tough questions. And now, you know, towards the end, it became about relationship management, finding the line between convenience and privacy, finding the line between ubiquity and addiction, how to stay aware and alert that to science, that it's no longer serving you, physically, you don't feel well, mentally you feel bad about yourself, emotionally, with our kids. And so, yeah, I mean, it not so much one moment, it's sort of like 1000, paper cuts later, you start to look back and be like, I don't know if all of this feels as endorsable and as celebratory as it did in 2010, when everything was new and exciting. And it was about experimenting and trying new things. And, and then suddenly, it took on a new term. And that's where this sort of like helping people navigate their relationship with technology thing really started to become sort of like marital therapy.
Chris Kaspar 6:47
Yeah, the honeymoon period is over. And now we kind of dive into the more complex, nuanced, sophisticated issues at hand, and some are great, and some are still challenging.
Jon Lentz 6:56
So Carley I'm fascinated by everything you just said, because, you know, it's so interesting, especially with the mobile device, how we let this most intimate of devices into our most intimate spaces so incredibly quickly. And like you said, there were so many red flags that you know, like a good relationship the first two weeks or six weeks is amazing. And then you start to see things you never saw before. How did you strike that balance? And start to untangle that and go, Hey, there's a lot of good here, but there's a lot of negative as well, and how can we take advantage of the good and separate the good from the bad and press on towards healthy relationship and engagement with technology like that?
Carley K 7:28
Yeah, I mean, I think it's sort of on a pain point by pain point basis, right? I mean, if you are bickering with your husband every night, because he's on Facebook, and you want his attention, or you're on Pinterest, and he, you know, feels like you're not listening to him. I mean, that's, that's a moment right there, where you have to just kind of stop and really reflect on what's going on. I like to tell my kids and my husband, quite frankly, that, you know, the phone represents other people, right? It's it's emails, it's texts, it's posts on social media. It's, it's many, many people trying to get our attention through the through the apps that we have on our phone. And so if mid sentence while my daughter is telling me something cool that happened to her at school that day, or if my husband's trying to catch up with me and talk about, you know, how his day was, if I just kind of drift off and into my phone, because an alert or a notification comes up, and it attracts me, because, you know, it's been designed to prey on the most vulnerable parts of our brain. It's literally like I walked away and went to go talk to somebody else. And that kind of messaging, I've talked about that on my blog, and I've talked about it with my kids. That kind of messaging is pretty sobering. For most people. It's sort of like, if you're sitting at a restaurant, and just mid sentence, you just get up and go talk to another group of people at a different table. And so it doesn't mean that I never have to tell my kids like, Excuse me, for one second, something critical is going on, I just need to respond to this person. But it means that it requires a conversation. And if it's going to be longer than, I don't know, five seconds, it's time to excuse yourself from the table and go as if you were going to talk to those other people somewhere else. I don't have to stare at you staring down at your screen. And so I think, you know, again, like pain point by pain point. We sort of have to talk to our kids talk to our significant others talk to ourselves about what's really not going well here. And you know, for someone else it might be about the regular breaks they need to have because their eyes are dry and itchy. Or the you know, you know walking away from emails that you have to do or prescribing certain times to answer your emails because your heart rate gets out up, and I've had to delete a lot of apps off my phone, a lot of people that I follow on Instagram, I'm constantly editing the experience because I care very much about, you know, I try to stay aware about how they make me feel moment to moment and kind of edit on the fly. So I think that's really what it's all about. And for me just on my blog, trying to talk to people and sort of raise their awareness, because a lot of people are just kind of unconscious, they're not really particularly mindful about how they set up their notifications. And the phone is just a costing them all day long. And maybe they're not even really thinking about how they can improve upon that, or you don't even know how they can improve upon that. And so just kind of bringing it to people's attention and, and helping them kind of initiate the conversation with themselves first and then maybe their family members second.
Chris Kaspar 10:53
Yeah. And when I when you tell the story about like, hey, it's like stepping away from a conversation that makes me think all the way right before I got married a man I really looked up to said what his piece of marriage advice you know, everyone feels like they have the opportunity to give you marriage advice right before you get married. But his was Chris be present all the time, as much as possible, wherever you are, be president. And that's kind of what I'm hearing you say, it's not bad to go do email. But it's the perpetual distraction that can be dangerous to our, our face to face relationships. And so I'm hearing you say one of the valuable things you've learned is just when you're face to face be face to face, if you don't need to be that's fine. Just don't be halfway in this in this nebulous zone of focus, I guess.
Carley K 11:36
Yeah. And you know, that it's a great way to kind of encapsulate that. And we've all read a million articles about how multitasking is a sham. None of us are good. And our brains are not designed to shift back and forth from things, you know, and and how much time it requires to really bring your focus back to the thing that you departed really quick, because you just got that one Facebook alert. And then you know, an hour later, you look up from your phone, and you're like, oh, you know, crap, that was one Facebook alert. And now here I am. And so I think, you know, that is the biggest talk in my marriage is just, you know, how you can kind of slip away and think you're really listening, but you're not anymore? And, and how, you know, how upsetting that can be for the other person on both sides? And, and yeah, so I think it's good, it's good marital advice. And especially with our kids, I mean, we want our kids, you know, we're constantly harassing them about screen time, although for you know, the at home learning stuff, all of those warnings went out the window real quick, did they, but, you know, we're constantly harassing them, get off your phone, get off your phone, but you know, sometimes the adults in the home are the worst offenders. And I think it really, you know, at the most basic level, tell somebody else in the room, that they're not as important as whatever is in that screen. And again, oftentimes, you know, we have to recognize that we're being preyed on that these alerts were designed to, you know, be tempting be addictive. The phone is constantly asking for our attention. And we just have to do the best that we can to make sure that we are very discerning about when we turn our attention toward it.
Chris Kaspar 13:33
Yeah, that's good. I like how you connect the dots between the intention of the Creator who makes what, what's their intention, and just understanding that this is what this is intended to do, and just connecting those dots is valuable. So So I wanted to talk kind of just building in that whole relationship with tech concepts. You know, you said, Hey, I audit my everything that's hitting my phone on a weekly basis. That seems intimidating, but help bring us into that help us understand a little bit because I don't believe there's necessarily relationally neutral Tech, I kind of think everything either pushes us towards people or away from people, maybe there's a few case scenarios, but I would love your perspective. What are you auditing? What are kind of the guidelines that you follow? So that you can have a healthy relationship and not be hurt by this technology constantly?
Speaker 4 14:22
Yeah, it's a good question. And it actually was brought into stark relief when I tested the Wisephone because it became very clear on the things that I really could just be fine never having on my phone again. And then the things that I missed. So there were things like my banking app, or my garage door opener app, or Spotify where I have on my playlist or Life 360 where I keep an eye on my kids and so there were those things and I and I believe it's Cal Newport you know, all good things come from his book on digital minimalism, so I'm pretty sure it was Cal Newport good book. Yes. Right, of course, I'm pretty sure that it was he that was talking about, you know, the apps that are making money off of your return your frequent return, versus the apps that are more utilitarian that are helping you manage your life, and they don't, their business model isn't predicated on how often you come back. So some of those things, you know, I missed not having with me, but many of those other things, you know, felt like such a relief to get away from the Pinterest and the Instagrams of it all. And, you know, I don't really have a lot of games on my phone, I really try to practice what I preach, especially with my kids. And of course, you know, they they have different, you know, they have a different lifestyle, they have a different mode of communicating with their, with their friends. And so it's not going to look the same as my phone habits. And yet, there still have to be, there still has to be some rules, there still have to be has to be some decorum in the home and how we relate to each other when we are physically together. So for example, I never let my kids get in the car when they were younger, and I would pick them up from school and get on their phones, it was that car ride home was time for us to connect. And you want to get that like How was your day conversation when they're fresh, because it often doesn't exist, by the time you get home, if you're you know, if you if I was waiting for them at home, or I saw them an hour later, it would be like school was fine. But if they if you get them when they're fresh in the car, you get all the stories and you you know, if you know how to ask the right questions, you can get all kinds of good things out of your kids in that moment. So, you know, little things like that. And so I think back to your original question, I'm the kind of person who like edits their closet. Seasonally, I moved my winter stuff out, I put my summer stuff in and like go through and figure out what is you know, what I'm not wearing and what has a hole in it and what's ready to donate and what's ready to sell or whatever. And I love having an edited closet, I walk in, I can see everything, it's makes it so much easier to get dressed. And so same to with my phone, I test a lot of apps for because of what I do. And so I'm downloading things all the time. But I'm always trying to keep the phone as trim as possible. Because I just kind of want that edited experience. I want the stuff that's there that I need. And nothing else that I don't my biggest weakness are all the shopping apps like the the the Saks Fifth Avenue app, and the Bloomingdale's app, and you know, other offenders and I delete them all and then they slowly creep back onto my phone. And maybe like three months later, I need to delete them all again, because I'm just sort of opening them mindlessly and just looking around and buying things I don't need. So that's my big weakness for someone else. It might be, you know, Candy Crush or Sudoku or whatever. But you know, I just really try to keep everything edited, so that I can you know, like I said, get in and get out and use it for good and not just sort of fritter away a moment.
Jon Lentz 18:10
Yeah, I love that, Carley, I think that's awesome, just to keep things clean and organized and always be looking at what are the necessities in life? And what are the things that you know, your comments made me think of is about a year ago, my wife and I decided kind of through the pandemic, that we weren't just going to be a family that sits around and watches TV, right, we're home a lot, everything's kind of shut down. And it would just be so easy with three young kids to turn on the TV and keep them occupied while we do work or other things or just get a break. And what we realized is we wanted to take that TV away from them. But we had to replace it with something, we had to give them something that they would see as more valuable, which often meant our time and our engagement and our participation and interest in their lives, not just take away something that they thought was nice and fun. So when you did that experiment, kind of with the wise phone or even when you d scale your you know, your existing smartphone, you said it brought clarity to what you need and what you really can do without so what did you find yourself filling those voids with where maybe normally you'd go on the shopping apps, or you'd look at games or social media or other things. What did you find yourself replacing that time with?
Carley K 19:15
Well, first of all, this is such a good question, especially when it comes to smaller kids. My kids are, you know, teenage and college age. And so that time period is is over. Where I sort of would need to like be the camp counselor, so to speak and figure out what the activity is and the temptation to just put them in front of his screen. But I remember those days very well. You know, and so the answer about what I did is you know, I like to think of it as you know, being kind of wearing the pants in the relationship with technology. So if I feel like it's important for me, in terms of opportunities with my business or communication with my friends who I don't see all Every day to sit in my messages app or in my emails and respond to people and communicate, again, for work or for personal reasons, that's my choice. That's me kind of taking control of the situation instead of being lured into a Netflix binge or into a Pinterest hole or something like that. And so if it's, if it's opening up a Google Doc and writing a blog post that I feel passionate about, and wanting to express myself in that way, or, you know, watching a masterclass, those are sort of those opportunities where I'm making a decision. And it's, for my benefit. I mean, at some point in the last 10 years, even though I'm very clear about why I'm on a platform like Instagram, let's say it's a revenue generator. For me, I make money through some of my posts that I make on Instagram. So even though I have that clear, in my mind, it's infuriating sometimes to just kind of like take a step back and be like, we're all it's like, it's like that scene from The Matrix, right? We're all plugged into this machine. And we're giving it content for free. And somebody in Silicon Valley is making a ton of money from all of the posting that we do about what we ate for dinner, and who we went to a party with, and what concert we just saw. And it's like, what do we all do? Like, I feel like sometimes I can't remember whether it's the blue pill or the red pill, right? But like, I feel like sometimes I take whatever that pill is where I'm like, what, what is what are we doing? And what are we doing it for? And I have this sort of like, existential like, what is going on? Because why, right? Like, why are we you know, it's all in the name of like, letting our friends know what we're up to, or sharing our lives with people. But it's, it's wild, how much time we put into curating these feeds that for free. And there isn't really a material benefit, like if you sort of pressed somebody, and even for myself, where I do have a material monetary benefit, even I suppose sometimes question like, clearly not the benefit that the person who owns the app, but you know, the Zuckerberg benefit, like one of us is making a little bit more money than the other in this situation. So I guess what I'm saying is like, this is not the answer to your question at all. But I just feel like it's, you know, again, pulling back from the reactivity, and figuring out, what is my intention? Is it time to write something? Is it time to learn something? Is it time to express myself creatively? Is it time to communicate? for my own benefit? And if it's not one of those things, you know, just kind of being smarter about not getting swept away?
Chris Kaspar 22:59
Well, I mean, think about this. I mean, you speak on this regularly on national TV, okay, I'm the founder of Techless, that's the name of our company, but yet we still wrestle with getting sucked in. Tim Cook said, I use my iPhone too much. The design assumptions that are built into these things are terrifying, and they do not empower our intentions. And I think that's the most important thing. I mean, we're aware of it, and we still get sucked in. And so that's what we're trying to change what techlace is, and you know, that's a small part of what we do. But that's what you tried to do in your home, is you're saying, Hey, this is my tech, it needs to empower my will and what I want it to do. And that's what you're encouraging people to do as much as possible, as far as depends on you take control of this and let it serve you in the way that you need to be served instead of the other way around.
Carley K 23:46
Yeah, and I could not agree more. And then back to the little kid conversation, I always talk to my kids about knives in the kitchen, right? Like, you wouldn't just hand your kid a chef's knife and be like good luck, I hope that you know how to use this wonderful device that can do all kinds of incredible things in the kitchen. And so when people are like, you know, but the but tech is good, too. I'm like, Yeah, of course it is. I am a tech person in the media. My whole brand is about kind of sharing the things that I'm excited about that I think are relevant to people but obviously it can be used for bad as well. And when it comes to kids you know, I always talk to my kids about active versus passive use of technology. They knew that if they were on a computer making their editing their own digital video, or you know movie or making music my son is now at NYU studying music production and music business. But you know, he used to be a little DJ and make these little mashups on his computer. My you know, my my daughter would be online doing all these e courses that she was into, and so my kids always knew that they He had a much longer leash in terms of screen time, if they were doing something active versus something passive, like consuming media or playing a video game. And I remember saying to my son, like, play a video game, you know, you get 15 minutes, make your own video game, like then let's talk, let's talk about how long I might give you if you want to really get into coding and creating your own thing. And so, and I would always turn my screen around to if they saw me on a laptop, I would be like, come over here, let me show you what WordPress looks like. I'm about to publish a blog post, let me show you what Photoshop looks like I'm about to create a little ad banner graphic for my, for my blog or whatever. I'm writing something in Google Docs. And that way, too, they didn't always just associate my head buried in a laptop with I'm, you know, for all they knew I was just sort of scrolling mindlessly or you know, shopping or whatever. I always wanted to point out to them when I was doing something creative, because, of course, so many careers now, including all of ours involve being on a computer. And so again, we have to all find this balance between how much is too much. And what are we doing on these computers? Are we are we creating incredible lives? Or are we wasting our lives?
Chris Kaspar 26:22
Yeah, that's an awesome distinction. And all the way back to your romantic view of the very first Mac, it was a creative tool instead of a consumption tool. And that's been the shift. And so you seem very loose and free with technology when it has to do with creating. And did your red flag start going off anytime? It's consumption?
Speaker 4 26:40
Yeah, for sure. Because it's just a leanback experience. And my son and I talk about this a lot, because he, I would call him. He's not not just a Nintendo enthusiast. He's like a Nintendo scholar, like his knowledge of the brand, and the games and the lineage and the history and even the executive. You know, the org chart in tendo is really in the music and this the piece score pieces and who compose that. I mean, it's mind boggling. He's, he's a real, he's really passionate about it. And yet, it's video games. And so we've talked incessantly about how much is too much. And what are some other ways that you can sort of be active with this passion that you love without just puking, you know, for hours and hours on end? And so, you know, these are ongoing conversations, just like so many things are so many sort of like struggle points are in any relationship, whether it's with your spouse, or spouse, or your work mate or your child. You know, you kind of keep chipping away at what feels right.
Jon Lentz 27:50
So, Carley, I think that's fantastic. And I think that's such an important point, because oftentimes, when people look at checklists, they think, Oh, you just want to separate from Facebook and social media and all of these other tools. And it's like, well, no, that has to be a personal decision for you. For some people. Yeah, you need to get off social media, or you need to delete that game permanently, or whatever the case may be. But for us, it's really a tool to help drive you to more intentional decisions. So that if you want to sit down and clear your inbox, like you said earlier, or respond to Facebook messages, maybe you have to pull out a laptop and actually carve out some time and get a chair and sit down and be intentional there where if you're just carrying around a mobile computer, then it's it's just a thoughtless process. It's always let me jump in. And let me do this immediately and instantaneously. And that's even what we've done with our kids is we didn't take away TV, we moved it to a media room upstairs, where it involves an intentional decision for us to go upstairs, carve out time, and be in a different room that we're not in all the time to watch something that we've chosen to watch. And so I just love that kind of intentional versus passive idea of, hey, let's actually go and do this intentionally not just pull it out, because we're boring people and we can't think of something to do to fill two minutes of time.
Speaker 4 28:58
I love that it's literally the same argument of you know, create two or three windows during the day where you answer your email instead of just mindlessly responding to every you know, ping, Ding buzz that happens on your phone. And again, now we're back to that multitasking thing where whatever it is that you were working on, you've now been diverted from that it's going to take you a few minutes to get your brain focused back on what that was once you're done with the email and so it actually decreases your productivity and and decreases that intentionality. So I love that it's great. And there's wonderful things to watch on Netflix. I just sat down with my son and watch the McCartney three to one thing I think that was on Hulu. But that was Rick Rubin and Paul McCartney talking about the entire catalog of Beatles music. I mean, it was just incredible to watch Paul McCartney talk about all of this, you know, incredible history with the most incredible band in the world. And I mean, we both just were almost like sobbing because of how huge that catalog is, and how meaningful The Beatles are in our family and to our lives. So I mean, obviously, there's wonderful things to watch on television. And there's even wonderful video games to play. And it's all just like you said, about creating that intentionality. So isn't pulling us away. Like, it's so good at doing at all, you know, all the time.
Jon Lentz 30:24
Absolutely. So, Carley, you've given us so much great information. We're coming up on time here. But let's leave the listeners with just a couple of tips for how they can have a proper healthy relationship with their technology. What are what are a couple things that you recommend to people, as you're doing interviews and talking on TV? What are some of the things you want to leave our listeners with?
Carley K 30:42
Yeah, well, I think, you know, some things that come to mind, in addition to some of the things that we spoke about already, which is sort of being aware of your active versus passive use of technology, you're, you know, sort of ruthlessly editing your, you know, the amount of apps that you have on your phone, the notifications that harass you from your phone, making your phone quieter, I call it also continuing to really leverage and we haven't talked about this yet, but leverage all of those digital wellness, sort of aspects of your current operating system, if you aren't already, you know, the the makers of these phones, Apple, Google, have really heard everyone's concerns loud and clear. And I'm sure grudgingly have created some of these, you know, utilities that now are on the phone that can really help you manage your screen time help you manage time that you spent on any one particular app. And so making sure that you're leveraging those. But the other thing too, is just this whole idea of being reactive versus being again, more intentional or active. So if I'm going to respond to every text, I get immediately, every email that I get every news update that I get, I'm just reacting to other people's agenda, as opposed to and again, we didn't talk about routines. But you know, you've, I'm sure all your audiences read countless articles about like, what the smartest, most successful people do in the morning, and it's not answering their smartphone. So I think, you know, if you're going to wake up in the morning, you're going to say, I'm going to work out, I'm going to meditate, I'm going to make myself a smoothie, I'm going to attend to myself, and then go into my phone and see what other people want from me. It's a really powerful message that you're sending to yourself and everyone around you that you're going to take care of your own goals, intentions, your own agenda before you address other people's agendas. So that's something else. And then lastly, I would just say back to the relational aspect, is just to really listen to the people around you. We all can get defensive, right? A little bit. Like, you know, I didn't drink too much, I was fine last night, right? And so if you have people around you saying, Listen, you're always gonna have your nose in this device. I don't feel like you're listening. I think it's a really valuable thing to just check your ego. Check your defensiveness, take a deep breath, and really try to hear the people around you and see if you can make some changes.
Jon Lentz 33:12
That's awesome, Carley. Man, thanks so much for joining us today. The conversation was fantastic. And I just love your expertise on improving our relationship with tech. So thanks so much for coming on.
Speaker 4 33:23
It was such a pleasure to talk to you guys. I love what you're doing. Thanks so much for having me. And best of luck with everything.
Jon Lentz 33:30
Thank you so much. And for all of our listeners if you guys want to tune into more of what Carley has to say on the topic of tech and our right relationship with tech. You can check her out all the time on TV coast to coast for the rest of the holiday season and she'll be present sharing awesome gift ideas and gadgets that you may want to check out for the upcoming gift giving holiday. So for Chris, I'm John and this has been tech stocks. Thanks so much for joining us.